posted March 08, 2003 11:58 PM               

I think most businesses of any nature have a "relatively small group of people" that they depend on for business. They're called loyal customers. I don't get how loyal customers are bad for comic book stores but good for everyone else.

quote:

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Originally posted by DaBubba:
What if DC reduced their monthly titles by half and tripled the number of original trades and hardcovers?

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Industry wise, I'm for whatever sells. Though it's clear that comic buyers in the last 15 years aren't buying TPBs or HCs at the rate that those formats can take over the industry. Didn't take 15 years for CDs to push cassettes and LPs off the charts, and it won't take 15 years for DVDs to outdo video cassette sales.

Speaking for myself, I'm probably not buying any original trades or HC unless they cost about $10 or if it's obviously a good deal (i.e. Child of Dreams, but that's technically reprint material). Plastic Man and Orbiter will each be $20 - $25. I'm not real sold on either one, so I'll be passing. It might be a matter that there's not many concepts that have appeared in HC that I wanted to plunk down the cash for.

quote:

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Originally posted by DaBubba:
I'm really looking forward to the Kyle Baker Plastic Man HC. I'm very excited about Warren Ellis' and Colleen Doran's Orbiter, which I hope is a huge smash. I'd rather see DC pump resources into that kind of product instead of into something like HERO (just to pick on a newbie floppie).

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Take away the formats that they're printed in for a second. Why, for Pete Rose's sake, are Orbiter and Plastic Man more virtuous concepts than H-E-R-O, or any monthly book out there right now? it's not like most of the creators, in most cases, make their pitches as monthlies or one-shot hardcovers; the publishers are calling those shots.

Funny enough, H-E-R-O is a concept that I would consider buying if it went straight to HC/TPB. And I would go get it on the Wednesday that it came out, thank you very much.

posted March 09, 2003 08:11 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Rusty Shackleford:
...Clearly, the stores are open for most of the week and get in other regular customers and casual foot traffic, and I'm assuming they're getting the same welcome as the folks who come in Wednesday.

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I've been in a lot of comic stores, and new customers almost never get the same welcome as the regulars. Maybe we just have different experiences, but I've gone into stores with money to burn and walked out empty-handed because the clerk/owner was a total bee-otch, if he even bothered to look up from his Warhammer game or whatever the hell he's playing. Of course, I've been in a few comic shops where the clerks have gone out of their way to say hello and ask if I'm looking for anything. It's a nice experience when it happens and that store gets my money.

quote:

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Originally posted by Rusty Shackleford:

I think most businesses of any nature have a "relatively small group of people" that they depend on for business. They're called loyal customers. I don't get how loyal customers are bad for comic book stores but good for everyone else.

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Loyal customers are great, but we all know that sales on floppies have decreased dramatically over the past few years. The loyal customer base is obviously shrinking. Therefore, if a shop wants to survive, it needs to look beyond that shrinking customer base. People die, they move away. Any business has to eventually replace their customers. I'm saying it might be easier to do that with original HC's and trades, rather than with floppies.

quote:

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Originally posted by Rusty Shackleford:

Take away the formats that they're printed in for a second. Why, for Pete Rose's sake, are Orbiter and Plastic Man more virtuous concepts than H-E-R-O, or any monthly book out there right now?

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They're not inherently more virtuous. My point was, if publishers created quality hardcover and paperback originals, they might be able to replace the money lost by the shrinking floppy market.

Yes, I have read some great comics and some **** hardcovers, but I think if publishers put their money into other formats, they could rebuild part of their previously large customer base.

Now, as a consumer, I'd rather read an orginal graphic novel with new ideas by great creators (Orbiter), than a comic with a retread concept by someone I've never heard of (HERO). Orbiter is also creator-owned. So, when it comes to my humble sales dollars, I'm going to buy something new that's partly owned by its creator, instead of comics-by-committee owned by corporate fatcats. That's just my communism coming out...

quote:

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Originally posted by Rusty Shackleford:

It's not like most of the creators, in most cases, make their pitches as monthlies or one-shot hardcovers; the publishers are calling those shots.

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But the creative people should be the ones deciding what and how they want to create. If it's going to survive, the industry needs to mature. DC should publish comics on two criteria : Is the story good? Will it sell? (or more likely, vice versa) As it stands, some editor goes "We need to fill 11 Batman titles next month. Whatta ya got?"

Nice discussion. I hope my point doesn't get lost in the back and forth. Just so it doesn't :-) :

posted March 09, 2003 10:56 AM            

I completely agree that publishers need to look at other formats, but I think they will be wasting their time as long as they rely on super-heroes and ignore "normal" stories.

Best-selling books almost always have normal people. Many are detectives or spies, but they don't wear costumes and don't have super-powers.

I think George Pratt's Enemy Ace is the best example of what DC needs to be doing. The general public wouldn't know that this Hans von Hammer was a old comic book character unless they read Joe Kubert's introdcution.

Lee Maars' and Bo Hampton's Viking Prince comes close. The only problem is that most people don't read books about vikings.

posted March 09, 2003 11:09 AM            

My gut feeling is that the bookstore crowd doesn't care. Because they are the bookstore crowd, they don't know how many months its been since the series was published. All they ever see is the collection. In the bookstores, an "average" collection, like Cage, Deadline, Johnny Double, Scene of the Crime, or anything similar will probably sell just as well in 2003 as it would in 2004.

In the comic shops, and especially on this board, there are people who want the collections rushed. However, sales statistics appear to indicate that this is a small fraction of the number of people who bought the monthly. It seems likely to me that people who want to buy a collection immediately will still buy it if it is delayed for a year or even two years.

However, it also seems likely to me that a collection that appears one month after the series has ended is going to tick off a large number of people who bought the monthly. They feel stupid. Eventually they decide that they aren't going to be stupid anymore. Monthly sales go down, and the collection is never published.

posted March 09, 2003 12:27 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by vze2:

I completely agree that publishers need to look at other formats, but I think they will be wasting their time as long as they rely on super-heroes and ignore "normal" stories.

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AMEN!

Since we were debating format, I didn't want to open the content topic, but I agree with you whole-heartedly.

posted March 09, 2003 12:35 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by vze2:

However, it also seems likely to me that a collection that appears one month after the series has ended is going to tick off a large number of people who bought the monthly. They feel stupid. Eventually they decide that they aren't going to be stupid anymore. Monthly sales go down, and the collection is never published.

Any thoughts?

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I still don't understand why people feel stupid when a collection comes out quickly. Is it because they would rather buy a collection than individual issues? If that's the case, an argument could be made to skip the comics and just put out the TBPs. The same people buying the monthly aren't the same people buying the trades, so what do they care?

I think the collections should come out as quickly as possible. If Hawkman is hot, put out a trade. HERO is selling out, gear up for a trade. Strike when the iron is hot and before the work loses it's relevence. I just finished reading the last INVISIBLES book and was very disappointed that I had to wait until 2003 to read a book that should have been read in 1999. I really think that DC and Morrison would have sold more copies of the trade if it came out closer to 1999/2000. Of course it's my own fault. I could have bought the comic when it came out, but I buy one or the other. I refuse to rebuy the same material in a TBP (a HC is a different story)

Finally, I know it's short term, but I don't see the multiple format reprinting of New, ULTIMATE, (X/Spiderman/Hulk) Force hurting the sales of those books. Why not give people the desired format in a timely manner?

posted March 09, 2003 12:36 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by vze2:
What about rushing out the collections?

My gut feeling is that the bookstore crowd doesn't care. Because they are the bookstore crowd, they don't know how many months its been since the series was published. All they ever see is the collection. In the bookstores, an "average" collection, like Cage, Deadline, Johnny Double, Scene of the Crime, or anything similar will probably sell just as well in 2003 as it would in 2004.

---

For me, rushed collections are a disincentive to buy the monthlies, especially mini-series. This is another reason I'd like to see more original trades and HC's. If I know the creators and have liked their previous work, I'd invest the extra few bucks to have a nice book instead of a handful of comics.

posted March 09, 2003 12:56 PM               

First some history, I've always gone to pick up my comics on the weekend because it fits my schedule. I never had any problem picking up books and my store(s) made a few moves before this, were always good about getting my pull list, including trades.

Everything worked few until, a few years ago I made a big move to another state and a new comic book store. This store was a "Wednesday" store. Whenever I showed up on Saturday, the shelves were bare, I was lucky if my pull list was complete, because the owner would take comics from other pulls to fill books for his "Wednesday" clients who didn't pre-order a book. As I don't like the word "no" I saw him take books out of other pulls to fill my order of books that should have been in my pull in the first place! Finally this guy NEVER got any trades in! Even when I would ask him to get a book he wouldn't order it. He said that he would, but the books never came in. On top of that, he didn't take credit cards, and never had any change. On the plus side the guy was nice and new comics were 40% off, but I couldn't take it.

Based on that wonderful 1-year experierence, I now pre-order all my books (comics & trades/HCs) through mail order. I've moved again and am in walking distance of two comic stores which I go to for impulse buys.

posted March 09, 2003 03:46 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joe Pacheco:
I still don't understand why people feel stupid when a collection comes out quickly. Is it because they would rather buy a collection than individual issues?

---

Yes. Or at least possibly.

Let's forget about mini-series for a minute.

If DC offered me a choice between a monthly comic or a series of TPBs, I would probably get the TPBs.

So why don't I just wait?
Not every monthly comic is collected. Some of my favorites are often unpopular and don't get collected.

Doom Patrol is the best example.
Detective Comics had a run where the color palatte was limited. Was that collected? I'm not sure, but I don't think so.
Deadman wasn't my favorite, but I liked it.

Looking at older comics:
John Ostrander's Spectre
John Ostrander's Suicide Squad
Mark Verdheim's The Phantom
Martian Manhunter
I'm sure I can come up with some others.

So I have two easy choices and one hard one.
1. Get the monthlies I like.
2. Wait for the TPBs I like.
3. Try to guess which comics will be collected, wait for the TPBs of the ones that will, and buy the monthlies for the ones that won't.

Option 3 is not only the most difficult, but also the one most likely to dissapoint me because I will certainly be wrong a lot.

Option 2 isn't for me because my favorite comics are often uncollected.

That leaves option 1.

However, my entire logic depends on the assumption that not every comic is collected. Every time a collection is released before the ink is dry on the monthly, I feel that my initial assumption is wrong. That make me feel stupid despite the fact that my initial assumption is correct.

posted March 09, 2003 06:39 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by vze2:
Yes. Or at least possibly.

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Well which is it? Not to be snide, but I think we can all be unrealisticly demanding.

I don't think EVERY title should be collected and I think that any one actively buying comics over the past few years could predict w/90% accuracy which books will receive a collection. For example, I kept waiting for an Outlaw Nation collection. After about ten issues I figured out there wasn't going to be one, so I bought some back issues. Sure the back issues may not have been available, but if I wanted to read the book that badly I would have bought the comics in the first place.

quote:

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Originally posted by vze2:
If DC offered me a choice between a monthly comic or a series of TPBs, I would probably get the TPBs.

---

For the titles I care about (ie buy every issue), I'd never buy a comic again, so I'm all for DC making more trades. However, for impulse buying, I can't see myself blowing $15 just because I like the cover on the latest Hawkman comic. In the past I've thought that the comic book didn't have any more life in it, but now I think it has value as dispossible entertainment, like a song on the radio or a movie in a theater.

quote:

---

Originally posted by vze2:

So why don't I just wait?
Not every monthly comic is collected. Some of my favorites are often unpopular and don't get collected.

Doom Patrol is the best example.
Detective Comics had a run where the color palatte was limited. Was that collected? I'm not sure, but I don't think so.

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Batman was collected. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1563897261/qid=1047250301/sr=1-23/ref=sr_1_23/104-6751040-0970337?v=glance&s=books

Doom Patrol is an interesting example. I think it would have read better as a trade, but would it have sold? Would it have sold well enough to keep the book going? Would the book still be going even with the editor no longer at DC?

quote:

---

Originally posted by vze2:

Looking at older comics:
John Ostrander's Spectre
John Ostrander's Suicide Squad
Mark Verdheim's The Phantom
Martian Manhunter
I'm sure I can come up with some others.

---

I think the market is changing enough that uncollected titles will become the exception. I bet that if Ostrander's Spectre were published today there would be collections.

quote:

---

Originally posted by vze2:

So I have two easy choices and one hard one.
1. Get the monthlies I like.
2. Wait for the TPBs I like.
3. Try to guess which comics will be collected, wait for the TPBs of the ones that will, and buy the monthlies for the ones that won't.

Option 3 is not only the most difficult, but also the one most likely to dissapoint me because I will certainly be wrong a lot.

Option 2 isn't for me because my favorite comics are often uncollected.

That leaves option 1.

However, my entire logic depends on the assumption that not every comic is collected. Every time a collection is released before the ink is dry on the monthly, I feel that my initial assumption is wrong. That make me feel stupid despite the fact that my initial assumption is correct.

In my opinion, in situations where the collection is a sure thing, companies should solicit for both at the same time. That would enable people like me to choose.

---

Marvel has already let people know that their Tsunami line will be collected. In addition they have collections out for the majority of their titles. I'm interested in how the strategy works and how it will affect the sales of the monthlies.

Regarding the the three options you outlined the only safe bet is a safe bet as in option one. Whenever you try to play the market (option 3) there's a chance to get burned. Unfortunatly DC isn't putting out the majority of their content in trades yet like Marvel, Dark Horse and CrossGen. Hopefully this will change very soon.

posted March 10, 2003 06:34 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Joe Pacheco:
Well which is it?

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Both.

For comics I really care for, the answer is definitely yes.

For comics that I like marginally, the answer is possibly. If none of my favorites are available in TPB, I'm not going to get a TPB for the marginal titles that are collected.

quote:

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Originally posted by Joe Pacheco:
I think that any one actively buying comics over the past few years could predict w/90% accuracy which books will receive a collection

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It's getting easier all the time, but I'm not there yet. And the 10% I get wrong are ususally my favorites. I can't speak for anyone else, but I've seen a lot of begging for collections that I don't think stand a chance.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joe Pacheco:
Doom Patrol is an interesting example. I think it would have read better as a trade, but would it have sold? Would it have sold well enough to keep the book going? Would the book still be going even with the editor no longer at DC?

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I think the sales statistics from my original post tell the story, but I'd love to know what others think.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joe Pacheco:
I think the market is changing enough that uncollected titles will become the exception.

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When that happens, I won't have a problem with rushing out the collections.

quote:

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Originally posted by Joe Pacheco:
DC isn't putting out the majority of their content in trades yet like Marvel, Dark Horse and CrossGen.

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Almost everything I buy is from DC, although I do buy comics from all three of these companies. Oni also appears to collect a lot, and I buy some of there stuff too.

I have absolutely no problem with CrossGen. As far as I can tell, you can wait for the trade or the compendia and never be burned. So like I said above, when this becomes the norm, I don't have a problem with rushed trades.

By the way, the only CrossGen title I'm currently buying is Ruse. They have a copy of the local newspaper at the beginning of each issue. Are these reprinted in the collections? It seems to me that they would detract from the collection although they really add something to the monthly.

posted March 11, 2003 01:03 AM            

For those that advocate the wholesale extinction of the monthly format, consider this --- the revenue generated by monthlies help keep the price of TPBs relatively low. Now, paying $30-$40 for a nice hardcover is one thing, but can anyone say that they'd welcome the day when you would have to shell out $40-odd dollars for a softcover book featuring never-before-published material? People are always complaining that $3-$5 is too expensive for comics right now!

That also brings up something else -- the whole question of the next generation of readers. I imagine that parents are wary of comics right now because of their inflated prices. If parents aren't willing to pay $3 for a comic for their kid (assuming they even have access to comics) can you really see them plunk down $30-$40 for TPBs. Not really an "impulse" buy, now is it? Without new children being exposed to comics, the industry will indeed die once the last fanboy dies.
~~~~~~~~~~

To add to the above, I think that the industry's main problem is one of distribution. If the industry can find some way of reviving the newsstand market, then there wouldn't be any confict between "floppies" & longer collections; they could peacefully co-exist (floppies on the newsstand, collections in comic shops/book stores).

------------------
"It never hurts to help." - Eek the Cat

posted March 11, 2003 02:04 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Registered Member# 16603:
...To add to the above, I think that the industry's main problem is one of distribution. If the industry can find some way of reviving the newsstand market, then there wouldn't be any confict between "floppies" & longer collections; they could peacefully co-exist (floppies on the newsstand, collections in comic shops/book stores).

---

I just don't see how we can get from here to there.

Any periodical that distributes on the newsstand has to sell on a returnable basis.
All newsstand distribution systems that I've ever heard of in the post-WWII world have very high return rates of unsold product, usually 60-80%.
This means that for a publication to be viable on the newsstand (in the absence of circulation in the high six figures at least, when economies of scale really kick in), a periodical publisher has to either make most of its revenue from advertising rather than sales of the magazine itself, or it has to sell a vast majority of its circulation through subscription rather than retail sales, or both. This model has never at any time fit the comics industry.

Far as I can tell, with the exception of supermarket tabloids, very few periodicals sell significant numbers other than by subscription anymore. This isn't a problem peculiar to comics. Compare the number of general-purpose newsstands you see around now with what there were 20 (or if you're old enough, 30 and 40) years ago. It isn't a pretty comparison.

I think the newsstand market is probably a lost cause, and has been these past 20 years.
The only thing that makes me even a little uncertain of that point is the continued survival of Archie Comics, whose segment of the direct market has never been more than microscopic, but which goes on and on and on in newsstand distribution. I don't know anything about the internal economics of Archie, but I'm guessing that part of how they do it is by keeping their creative costs incredibly low. That wouldn't work for DC.

posted March 11, 2003 05:06 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by James Friel:
The only thing that makes me even a little uncertain of that point is the continued survival of Archie Comics, whose segment of the direct market has never been more than microscopic, but which goes on and on and on in newsstand distribution. I don't know anything about the internal economics of Archie, but I'm guessing that part of how they do it is by keeping their creative costs incredibly low.

---

You're including grocery stores in the newstand category, right? I've always heard that this is where Archie makes its money. It makes sense to me. Lots of moms bring Archie's target audience into these stores.

I agree that they keep costs low. They recycle stories and cover designs all the time. The writers and artists have a limited number of characters to learn. I'm not saying that the writing is bad, but it can't take Archie writers anywhere near the time it would take Alan Moore.

I think the typical comic shop reader has outgrown Archie.

Archie also does well with digests. It seems to me that this is tied to the size (height not quantity) of the target audience.

posted March 11, 2003 01:23 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by vze2:

By the way, the only CrossGen title I'm currently buying is Ruse. They have a copy of the local newspaper at the beginning of each issue. Are these reprinted in the collections? It seems to me that they would detract from the collection although they really add something to the monthly.

---

posted March 11, 2003 02:19 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Registered Member# 16603:
For those that advocate the wholesale extinction of the monthly format, consider this --- the revenue generated by monthlies help keep the price of TPBs relatively low. Now, paying $30-$40 for a nice hardcover is one thing, but can anyone say that they'd welcome the day when you would have to shell out $40-odd dollars for a softcover book featuring never-before-published material? People are always complaining that $3-$5 is too expensive for comics right now!

---

First, DC routinely offers 96-128 page HC graphic novels for $25. This is the equivalent of 4-5 issues ofa monthly series. There is no reason to suspect that the elimination of a floppy series would suddenly make this book $40 in SC.

Second, let's say that DC has decided it will start publishing a moribund character in a series of semi-annual GNs. Maybe Firestorm, or Swamp Thing. The books will be written by a Big Name, with high quality art. Currently, DC seems to need only about 3000 pre-orders for such a book to succeed. What happens if the series generates regular sales of 5000 copies? Maybe with the 4th or 5th book, DC can lower the cost to $20. If the sales shoot up, DC makes even more money, and can continue to ratchet down the price until it finds a sales level that makes money.

Right now, a $2.50 floppy needs around 20K in sales to stay afloat. That means $50K is what they shoot for with each issue. A 4-issue arc means $200K. Can a graphic novel generate $200K? Let's look at "JLA/JSA: Virtue and Vice. According to ICV2.com, it sold 16000 copies @ 24.95, for $399,200. Blows the doors off of the $200K floor. Clearly, DC has the potential to make as much money from a graphic novel as from a floppy series.

posted March 11, 2003 02:56 PM            

Instead of 6 floppies a month, of which customers buy, say 2 out of 6, maybe dc should be going for the magazine anthology format like they do in Europe with 2000AD and Metal Hurlant. More attractive to advertisers, certainly. Will it sell as many as the 6 individual floppies combined? Maybe not, but the advertising and higher cover price might make up for it.

Soemthing like: DC MEGAZINE starring Batman (on brainer) Featured in this isssue - Power Girl, Ragman, Sandman, and Kamandi:The Last Boy on Earth (whoever DC whats to promote).

posted March 11, 2003 05:02 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by NecessaryImpurity:

Right now, a $2.50 floppy needs around 20K in sales to stay afloat. That means $50K is what they shoot for with each issue. A 4-issue arc means $200K. Can a graphic novel generate $200K? Let's look at "JLA/JSA: Virtue and Vice. According to ICV2.com, it sold 16000 copies @ 24.95, for $399,200. Blows the doors off of the $200K floor. Clearly, DC has the potential to make as much money from a graphic novel as from a floppy series.

---

I think JLA/JSA is an aberration of success, though. Combine two of DC most popular teams, and by all means there's great potential for sales.

posted March 11, 2003 05:10 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by NecessaryImpurity:

...Right now, a $2.50 floppy needs around 20K in sales to stay afloat. That means $50K is what they shoot for with each issue. A 4-issue arc means $200K. Can a graphic novel generate $200K? Let's look at "JLA/JSA: Virtue and Vice. According to ICV2.com, it sold 16000 copies @ 24.95, for $399,200. Blows the doors off of the $200K floor. Clearly, DC has the potential to make as much money from a graphic novel as from a floppy series....

---

posted March 14, 2003 04:40 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by DaBubba:
I'm very excited about Warren Ellis' and Colleen Doran's Orbiter, which I hope is a huge smash.

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Just an FYI about Orbiter's orders.

quote:

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From Newsarama's article on Entertainment Weekly's comic section:
...while Warren Ellis was interviewed in the section and he and Colleen Doran’s Orbiter was touched upon, both he and Doran have been doing intensive outreach with retailers to make sure they are aware of the book. As a result, intial orders for the OGN are in the 7200 range, making the book one of the best-ordered Vertigo OGNS in years, but the high numbers are due to a variety of factors, most likely including the EW mention.

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posted March 14, 2003 05:44 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by James Friel:
It's not simple multiplication,though. Printing expenses for one trade may well be significantly less than for four floppies. There's only one piece of cover art to pay for. Administrative expenses (order solicitation, etc.), for one item are less than for four. Shipping may or mey not be less.

---

There's also the marketing aspect. One big hardcover is going to be easier to push to outside markets than an ongoing series. A good publicist could really hammer away at a normal book production schedule, but that would be an impossible task for 40 individual titles every month.

It's all about getting the most bang for your buck.

Rusty, thanks for the numbers on Orbiter. I hope it continues to do well!

posted March 14, 2003 05:53 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kamandi Last Boy on Earth:
...maybe dc should be going for the magazine anthology format like they do in Europe with 2000AD and Metal Hurlant.

...Something like: DC MEGAZINE starring Batman (on brainer) Featured in this isssue - Power Girl, Ragman, Sandman, and Kamandi:The Last Boy on Earth (whoever DC whats to promote).

---

This has been a fantasy of mine for a while. I think any attempt would have to focus on genre, instead of character, though DC would naturally include Superman, Batman, whomever.